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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<title>The bundle</title>
</head>
<body>
<div class="row">
<div class="column" id="bundle-left">
<img src="../static/bundle-imgs/foo-0.jpg">
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Two-Way Peking Duck, a Smelly Transcription Part 1<br><br>
Transcribed by Amy Pickles (AP) <br>
Transcribed by Clara Balaguer Lobregat (CB)<br><br>
AP: [Laughs]<br><br>
CB: How do we begin? Ok so how do we begin<br><br>
AP: Umm Umm<br><br>
CB: Do I ask you questions? Do I ask you questions? Or do you ask me?<br><br>
AP: I already asked you a question<br><br>
CB: um? Which one?<br><br>
AP: [Amy reads smelly email she sent to me, to begin the session]<br><br>
NOTE TO DESIGNER: HYPERLINK / FOOTNOTE LEADS YOU TO FIVE SENSES EMAIL <br><br>
CB: [Pause] You imbibe a source with a body. It’s your first point of contact.<br>
I think about the erroneously called visual anthropology, overlooking a group of people through the gaze of their binoculars. How could you only use your sense of sight for anthropology?<br>
They tend to educate like a glorified film and photo course. While we also hold the idea that if we make more traditional aesthetic film or photography, then the more sensorial form is ethnographic. <br>
[Pause] At University College London I met a student who was blind on their visual cultures course. We are too obsessed with the ‘visual’ artist when we should be appreciating broader sensorial artistic methods.<br><br>
AP: Um..<br>
By demanding yeah, but do you imagine that when your body experiences through sight your body in the background of that experience? Whereas to use the other senses such as taste and touch you would have to be more present, a much more direct experience with your research, as an observer, cos you can be far away but with binoculars?<br><br>
CB: It’s the oblique experience in art schools. There is an over emphasis and over valuation on the visual, and this is ableist. The Anthropology courses at The Massachusetts Institute of Technology they have a sensorial ethnography lab, which is more or less like an experimental documentary programme. I prefer the term sensual, but sensorial is useful too, in thinking about what can be changed in art school.<br><br>
AP: I like the term sensual<br><br>
(think about binoculars)<br><br>
CB: Visual brings a sense of detachment, like using a camera, especially with the camera, you are looking through a disassociated eye that is not your own. You can use this to make a divide between yourself and the horror you are photographing. Sometimes they need to do this to have the presence of mind for what they need to do. To have a barrier.<br><br>
(think about an image of a corpse, or an attempt to image it)<br><br>
CB: [Pause] If you use all your other senses as well, like a gathering of knowledge, where each sense is just as important but not placed on the same plane of importance. Like working muscles. We move without knowing how to move them, there is too much emphasis placed on what you see. When we pass this judgement there is no contextual information.<br><br>
(think about what your muscles are doing now, do you know how you speak to them?)<br><br>
I am not walking about in a pith helmet. NOTE add footnote description and image of pith helmet. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pith_helmet">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pith_helmet</a> (pictures I have uploaded separately)<br>
When you are working in a social manner you are conducting sensual work.<br>
This type of work is also needed for creating some sort of aesthetic object or experience.<br>
[Pause]<br>
When you work with people it is impossible to not contaminate the sample.<br>
Anthropology, it’s not the field for an idiot savant.<br><br>
AP: Not an ethnographer?<br><br>
CB: I am an amateur ethnographer. Though the qualities of an ethnography base you can discuss the trust that you can generate with your subject. You can’t be watching from afar.<br><br>
(remember binoculars)<br><br>
You need to get dirty.<br>
You must share sweat.<br>
There is in this the qualities of eroticism.<br>
You have to use all of your bodily senses to activate an effective environment.<br>
All of your senses are in use when you build trust.<br><br>
AP: When I did the master we discussed whether you had an erotic relationship with your students. Everyone was like no no noo but then I think that you do because eroticism is a desire and the imaginary. You need to see something in your students that may not be present but you feel something, that may or not be there, and your desire and animated teaching can bring that out of them. [Pause] I just wonder if there is a time where we can use that word in the same sentence as education.<br><br>
Between you and I for sure that’s fine but taking it out into, other systems, who could interpret that in other ways … (breath in) … yeah because I think some would feel nervous to use the term erotic pedagogy in a broader social setting for fear of it being misinterpreted. In the same way that I am wary to introduce experiences in the classroom that refer so overtly to the senses because of an anxiety that they’re as perceived as a waste of time. Maybe not by participants, but maybe by administration or by bodies looking at the overview, bodies doing the anthropology with binoculars. So then I wonder, if you don’t have experience with sharing sweat and getting dirty can you have a how can those bodies have an appreciation for that kind of work?<br><br>
CB: Wait let me read through<br><br>
Split the text here, to have Part Two conversation below appear later / in a different place?<br><br>
Two-Way Peking Duck, a Smelly Transcription Part 2<br><br>
Transcribed by Amy Pickles (AP)<br>
Transcribed by Clara Balaguer Lobregat (CB)<br>
We are returning to questions of how bodies could appreciate other types of work. <br><br>
CB: You have to be very careful <br>
REDACTED through REDACTED <br>
REDACTED artist, had to REDACTED each other <br>
it’s a sensuous act, to REDACTED somebody <br><br>
[ OFF THE RECORD ] play with redacted and off the record in design <br><br>
We talk about hair. We talk about textures of bodies. <br><br>
AP: I’ve been thinking about hair a lot lately <br>
I want to chop off my hair REDACTED <br><br>
[ OFF THE RECORD ] <br><br>
CB: partners REDACTED pick a partner and REDACTED something to them. There are no words for sensorial experience. REDACTED not a driving force, partnered with an REDACTED as if you didn’t want to transgress limits. REDACTED without forcing our bodies on one another REDACTED asked how your encounter went. We had just REDACTED. REDACTED was disappointed REDACTED hadn’t entered the exercise. I felt I had done something wrong. That I was not radical enough, I was closed off. You need to set boundaries, those I am happy to have. That is part of being careful. <br><br>
In pedagogy, when thinking about how much of the body we use, we must ask for consent. When you go into a space where bodies will be touching then we need a clear picture of what’s going to happen. We can get carried away by a precondition of surprise because it can be useful. But to enter and trust and be open, and in order for the environment to be created when you can keep trust and openness, you need to tell people what’s going to happen. You can tell them, we are going to transgress our physical boundaries, then everybody in the room knows. <br><br>
AP: Because in that earlier situation it was erotic but it was also sexualized. Though you can
have erotic encounters without sexual feelings, in that setting it was imposed upon you. You know it’s also something that was hierarchical, the educating body came towards you and didn’t give you a choice on REDACTED then that makes for an imbalanced setting. Your form would shrink away from that moment. In that situation there was an unequal power relation established from the very beginning.<br><br>
CB: It can also be the way things are framed and exploited by others. Like the Women’s
Liberation Movement. This was more power and autonomy for women, but changing the ways in which we persued heterosexual relationships often meant more sex for men. <br><br>
Now I’ve been working with embodied learning in sport, in bodies in motion, and I’ve been working through ableism and challenging team building according to individual excellence. This is another type of embodied learning, here the body is a tool. In sport we are learning from experience, by feeling it deeply in the body, without reading it in your mind.<br><br>
AP: It’s hard because anything [Pause] all these things that we know through the senses are
things often hmmm [Pause] we don’t know them in our heads. We don’t know how we will respond until someone encourages you to participate in something in a certain way. Before, you don’t know what memories will be raised. There is a lot of stuff held in the performance of your body and the senses. You don’t know what an experience will pull from you. Like the sense of smell, it’s so powerful but you don’t know what the smell can evoke in someone else.<br><br>
CB: It can be dangerous. Once I took part in a workshop in a summer school called A School
A Part (add a hyperlink) For the school I organised an organic troll farm for five days. I
facilitated exercises to build up to it, ways to get a sense of belonging to a team when we
had never worked together before. The build up was for us to learn how to collaborate.
Then we collectively ran the troll farm together for 8hrs.<br><br>
What you eat directly affects your mood and how you react with other people. It can be the cause of toxic conversation and online discussion. With that in mind, I said we could consume no coffee, no stimulants, sugar or carbohydrates before we began work in the morning. By noon I fed everyone fatty foods, and we could drink coffee. At 17:00 we could have beers. At 18:00 REDACTED. <br><br>
There is a lot that happens when you troll, but the most difficult thing to learn is extraction. You have to know when to stop. REDACTED to confuse them, so they are not in their tunnel vision anymore.<br><br>
We learned what’s it’s like to be a troll by actively engaging with the commentary. We thought about how can we counteract toxicity through experiencing it. It was great but at the end I had to leave the room because I was beginning to hyperventilate, I felt like I was the leader of some kind of ayahuasca (add in link <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca</a>) trip. Because I was responsible for that trip.<br><br>
When you are bringing people into an emotionally charged environment, as a facilitator you have a huge responsibility. The framework I made gave me room to explore and adapt. But in an institution your set of responsibilities are made by the institutional environment and they are less mind bending.<br><br>
(think about hugs)<br><br>
AP: And in the institution there’s also this on limit the care you can give, I can imagine in the
summer school you could give participants a hug if they had a negative experience, there are many more informal ways to care for a person that we don’t perform in an institution. There are more restrictions in how you can interact with a student and show intimate forms of care. But then [Pause] I suppose that’s where I had this question of how do you incorporate these kinds of exercises in a way that’s not totally superficial. In a way that goes deep enough but can actually be carried out.<br><br>
CB: You have to cultivate a professional distance that is necessary and useful. How to make
sure that students know that the distance is not a hierarchy is the hard part.
It’s respect that goes both ways, it’s not you enforcing a hierarchy. My problem is that I’m an empath and I dive in with all my heart. In the Philippines, we are an emotionally intense society. In all the workshops and community building activities I did there, I shared things that were very personal. There it’s something you need to share because people just don’t trust you if they don’t see your vulnerability.<br><br>
Here in the Netherlands I am more classified as a person of colour, whereas in the Philippines I am white, I have to make an extra effort to be relatable. I am not going to impose a barrier, as an anthroplogist might.<br><br>
AP: Now that you’re a person of colour in the Netherlands do you think people expect you to
be a relatable character and provide the personal things that you were sharing in the
Philippines?<br><br>
CB: That is part of my character anyway. For me it takes more effort to hold back and be a
professional than a detached person. I recognise though that you need to know where your limits are as well. The balance of intimacy is a tricky subject. When I am working with fisherman in a rural area of the Philippines my behaviour would not include anything close to eroticism and I wouldn’t bring in so much literacy about feminism, though I can still embody these values. Communities are not asking you for a moral lesson when you work on a social project. You have to establish forms of trust in a way that is natural.<br><br>
And to answer your question of expectation. No, they expect me to be like them. Contained. Friendly. But not direct. In the Netherlands there is a certain distaste for people who share the way I do, but that in itself is a strategy. I am going to ask basic and stupid questions!<br><br>
AP: It’s hard for people because your openness is something that others have held in their
body forever but they haven’t been raised to behave that way. I imagine it’s like a
physical shock to hear such intimate and personal things. It’s much easier to not interact with it. Not that I want to make than an excuse, to try and imagine why you get a distasteful reaction.<br><br>
CB: I feel like as an outsider I can better hold a subjective position. I will always have this
“she doesn't know the customs” that I can use if there is a backlash. If you go against a polder decision or you voice the elephant in the room right there on the table. As an outsider I have a certain leeway. People contest less for fear of being racist. <br><br>
I am direct but no aggressive. That is something that I am careful with. I make sure it never feels like a personal attack.This can be avoide through body language, expression, bodily cues. The problem is more when you put the questions and the elephants on the table. You can never guarantee that people don’t react aggressively
It’s uncomfortable in general. But it must be done.<br><br>
AP: I also wondered how long can you be an outsider, like can you live in that position
forever or will eventually you be consumed by the machine? Because this is also something that I ask myself...<br><br>
(think about the machine)<br><br>
CB: I ask myself that every time I enter this building
! I try to remember that I am in a
privileged position and I must resist the lull of this position. I must not get comfortable, and think that resources, time and space is normal, because it isn’t normal for the rest of the world. This is institution is not normal. You can’t fully resist it because you are inside it, but how you can protect yourself is a constant concern.<br><br>
How can I keep the bodily memory of these experiences from another place, how can you keep those bodily muscles alive? That’s why I think about muscle memory. I’m developing a strategy in social practices, for us to develop muscles intuitively. You try to think about, oh there was a movement I was doing over and over again, the more you do it the more you can control how it moves. <br><br>
The context of the memory is also important. That was something I noticed as I changed the cities in which I lived. In terms of moving around, it takes about four years until I have the feeling of belonging. As a cross cultural kid I like that feeling. I want a sense of relief when you see the city that you live in. This feeling, I think it comes from people. I remember distinctly in Barcelona, six years ago when the city felt like a neighbourhood.<br>
I was running into people often enough but not too often.<br><br>
AP: Which is a feeling that we should aspire to create in educational places so the people
that you’re teaching or working alongside would be more willing to talk about elephants and their bodies! Well [Pause] I was trying to go back to two things we talked about, elephants in the room and earlier about using the body in pedagogy. Because now I realized we talked for an hour and I don’t want to take too much of your time! <br><br>
I like this sense of relief you mention, maybe that’s another sense it would be good to think about when we are trying to create trust. How to make people feel relieved at the beginning, so we can then work together.
</div>
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<title>The bundle</title>
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<img src="../static/bundle-imgs/foo-0.jpg">
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Toast<br>
This story is from my friend and peer, the artist Clara J:son Borg<br><br>
I am at the Glasgow school of art on exchange and I am standing on the concrete floor in one of the school’s project spaces. I am holding a stack of dry, already toasted toast bread. We have been asked to bring materials that we are working with at the moment, it will be used in today’s workshop that is about non-visual inspiration.2 The other students come with plaster and ropes and classical sculptural material. I feel a bit stupid with my toast bread stack, but I guess that is what you do when you new to an environment.; you try to figure it out by modifying the material that is plentiful around you. I have gone for white toast bread.<br><br>
The workshop starts with the task to stick our hands down in a black velvet bag and feel an object in it. We then get asked to return to our materials and respond with it to what we felt in the bag. I am staring at the stack of toast bread. I have just slid my fingers over an object that was about 3 cm in diameter, made out of plastic, had 0,5 cm spikes on one side and an undefined back or front. I find this extremely hard. At my home university I have been thought to look. Look at images, look at colours, look at structures, look at materials. A somatic experience with an object in a bag is not normally how I start my creations. Inside me my thoughts and ideas have both frozen and running fast as never before. I stare at the stack of toast and when the time for the response is running out something tells me that I need to tie a black string around the stack of bread. I am not really sure why.<br><br>
Next inspiration is a smell. We sniff different fragrances on paper slips just like in a perfume shop. I chose to work with a strong, heavy, warmish fragrant. It seems to be an artificial version of something natural that doesn’t do the natural smell justice. I stare at my stack of bread again and I start to arrange them while keeping the smell in my memory. Trying to find a strong formation. An artificial natural formation. Trying to think about whether the smell brings back any memories. Trying to put the bread in relation to the crumbs that they leave on the concrete floor. I am in strong doubt that the toast bread is any good for this exercise.<br><br>
In the third round the non-visual inspiration is taste and in the last one we get a piece of clay to modify as we are listening to electronic music. I am thinking that this is a bit too therapeutic. Or that this is what I think an older generation artist do; listen to music in their studios and create after what they feel. I work with concepts and ideas. Not with feeling. I still give it a go. The base becomes small holes, the reverb a wave formation and I try to make the clay look as happy as the music makes me feel and between the music and my struggle with the happy clay the experience of the workshop is starting to sink in. There is an understanding establishing about how challenging it is for me to not having any visual inspiration. How this makes me pay attention to thoughts, ideas and feelings that I have, that looking has coded me to pay less attention to.
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<img src="../static/bundle-imgs/debris.found.ssw_lumsden_primary_school.leossoundday.jpg"></div>
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Can you imagine learning something without any senses? Personally, I don’t know how to do it.<br><br>
On the day that everything was covered in the white snow, I curated a lesson for Choreographies
for Phantom Limbs on pressing topics such as immigration, racial discrimination and social
inclusion together with Amy Pickles. Multiple senses were used as media for communications
exchanged among educators and students.<br><br>
We started by moving our bodies around the classroom along a playlist of the students’ favourite
songs. Songs after songs, we began to recognise one another. We smelled some of us as ones
passed nearby. We smiled and laughed at one another. I think we learn how to socialise with
strangers, at least.<br><br>
Then, we watched two short films by Prapat Jiwarangsan together. We heard genuine voices and
watched moving images narrating personal stories of a Japanese boy and girls whose roots are
related to Thai immigrant parents. I think we learnt stories that we may never know, at least.<br><br>
At the end, we reflected on our accumulated experiences and discussed about them among us.
Everyone seemed enthusiastic to talk to one another. Two students shared their personal
experiences regarding racial discrimination in the Dutch society, which was my hidden agenda. It
gave me the confidence to start calling myself a curator. So, I think not only that the students
learnt from what I have selected for them but I also learnt a spectrum of what curating can be.<br><br>
As I have been researching on immersive installations, I want to ask how can we use a multi-
sensorial experience as a means to reflect critically on our society instead of being another
instagram-friendly exhibition?
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Sami invited Tamara de Groot, who teaches in the Arts & Culture programme at the Erasmus University College (EUC), to have a conversation with him about decentering the human in art pedagogy. In her work at EUC, she experiments with the workshop idea ‘World Building’ (based on Technofeminist notions, such as the work of Donna Haraway on multi-species entanglement and storytelling). It is this practical workshop that Tamara has with her students that Sami wanted to discuss.<br><br>
Sami Hammana: I think I have mentioned this concept once already in the TTP (Teacher Training Programme) meetings, but I’m really fascinated by this idea of the ‘call to order’. Which is basically the idea that the moment a teacher comes into the space and says ‘ok, so, now we are going to start learning’. Right? Then the first slide of the powerpoint starts to appear on the screen etc. This [concept of the call the order, claims that this] is essentially a colonial practice. Because you are basically claiming that everything that happened before the call to order wasn’t learning. You are kind of erasing any sort of learning moment that might arise. You know, when students are talking amongst themselves etc.<br><br>
You know, this concept sounds amazing in theory, but I find it extremely difficult to think about this in practice, you know, when you teach. It makes me kind of warry of how to start this conversation. Because if I say ‘ok now we start’, I’m kind of doing exactly that, erasing that which we had already been talking about before. <br><br>
Tamara de Groot: Well, it is the beginning of something, but also the ending. So, how do you finish a class? Because it can be read as ‘ok, knowledge ends now’. This is it. You are done. Stop thinking now and go away and eat lunch and it doesn’t happen anymore. So I think we have already started. So there is no need to start something.<br><br>
[SH and TG laugh]<br><br>
TG: What I see as a huge problem, of course this counts for everything, that if the basis, the foundation, which is also the space of the entire educational system, and the entire world. If that remains the same, how can you really change something? <br><br>
Ok, let’s say there is a class and students are waiting and you want to change this idea of stepping in as a teacher and immediately inhabiting this authoritative position. The only thing you can then do is to not enter. Because everything else, doesn’t matter how you enter, you are taking up that position already. Actually, even before you enter that classroom. This is what students expect. In that sense, I don’t think that there is a way around the way things are structured now. But I also feel that, well hopefully at least, we are in this moment of transition. Where what we can do is to become, and make students, aware that this is happening. Which partly isn’t happening yet, well for most people. Even among teachers, they do not realize that they are performing this. It is not something that they necessarily consider.<br><br>
I think this goes for many other things as well in education, that we first have to start becoming aware of what we are doing.<br><br>
SH: Precisely. You know, I think it is funny, that we are having this conversation right now, while we are sitting in one of the most boring classrooms in the WdKA building. <br><br>
[SH and TG laugh] <br><br>
But spaces like these, you know, we have previously been talking about how the interior-architecture of a classroom influences pedagogy. Spaces like these, do not help. This division of, you know, “good furniture” in the front, and tiny ones in the back.<br><br>
TG: It is quite funny, because here, in comparison to the Erasmus University College, it is at least a lot messier. This room, you know, you can see that the tables are scattered, they are not really organised in any recognizable shape. There is some stuff in the middle and there are some random papers on the table. This is already a bit of a difference. At least the tables aren’t in an u-form.<br><br>
SH: Yeah, yeah [laughs]<br><br>
TG: And, there is indeed a desk, a sort of bigger table, but that is kind of in the middle of the other small tables. So, I mean like, I think. On this micro-level, we can also make changes that do really effect how the teacher and the student experience learning. This is not to say that we shouldn’t change the system in general.<br><br>
SH: That is, unfortunately, quite a big task.<br><br>
TG: Exactly. I’m actually curious to see how you do this, to make these moments of minor-changes. Do you do this when you teach? What kind of techniques, or tricks, do you use to make students aware of certain power-structures?<br><br>
SH: Yeah… Well, one thing which I’ve done recently. And I’m not exactly sure whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. But, I have been really welcoming long and awkward silences in teaching.<br><br>
TG: Hmm.<br><br>
SH: Well, because you will always have this problem in class where you have 1, 2 or 3 really outspoken and engaged students. Which, of course, doesn’t mean that the rest isn’t engaged. But, their voices kind of overpower the confidence of these other students to say something. So, you know, whenever these students that are normally not talking as much or saying something. When they finally feel comfortable to speak, sometimes it takes a very long time, a very long time, a minute or something, to properly form a sentence. I have been really welcoming these long awkward silences and giving the space and time to these students to formulate their thoughts.<br><br>
So this is one thing that I have learned, that could perhaps work well. But I have to say, I’m not completely convinced about this other classic thing, of ‘let’s sit in a circle on the floor’ and everything is immediately ‘flat’ and devoid of hierarchy...<br><br>
TG: Because there is hierarchy.<br><br>
SH: Yeah!<br><br>
TG: Right? That is why, when I teach, I do teach. This is because students want to get something from me. I have been thinking and reading a bit about whether we as teacher are simply there to facilitate the learning process or that we actually do more. So that is not like ok, ‘we give the students the space and we sit back and relax and let them do the work’ and claim that we as teachers are not in any position to teach the students anything. They do want to learn something, and I think that the beauty in learning and teaching, is that as a teacher you do add something extra to the situation. <br><br>
At Erasmus University we use the idea of Problem Based Learning (PBL). So it is centered around a problem and the whole pedagogical idea behind it, in the classical sense, is: if you “do it right”, this means that you won’t even need a teacher or tutor. The students go through different steps so that you essentially get rid of the teacher. Now, we use a system which is a bit more teacher-oriented, so there is a tutor there. But they try to keep out of the conversation as much as possible. Now, how people approach this is different, because you can imagine that if you have a lot of extra knowledge, that you're more inclined to intervene. But the idea is that anybody could teach any class. So you just have a kind of manual and that's how you do it. And this idea of completely deleting the teacher from this situation, I'm actually not too much a fan of. I think there is a lot that you can contribute to as a teacher, from your background. Even if it's not … But it can be… It doesn't have to be this authoritative figure dumping knowledge on, you know, a receiving crowd of students. But I do think we're quite crucial. <br><br>
SH: Yeah for sure. And I think there's this other problem to it as well which is the problem of capital. And as soon as you pay a couple of thousand of euros for tuition fees each year. You know, for them to come into the room and you're being all vague about stuff. And everything is the same as etc. You know, the idea of ‘I'm not here, I'm not a teacher’. ‘I'm trying to be controversial and experimental’. But no, the students pay money that they need to get something out of.<br><br>
TG: And so, what I find interesting to see, and this is also from this transdisciplinary idea of non-hierarchical relations within a collaboration is, what if I, as a teacher, have my expertise, I have my knowledge. Students, similarly, have baggage. Right? Intellectual baggage. Like they have a background they have experiences, they've read stuff and they've done things that I have not and other students haven't either. And to see the learning process more as a collaboration where everybody can contribute something, where my knowledge, as a teacher, is not more valuable than what the students can bring in. I think this is a very interesting idea to work with. This, of course, doesn't really work in lectures. You have to have a setting where everybody can be involved, and can speak, and has a voice, but then within different settings and different pedagogical approaches you could, I think, do a lot with this.
But it's not easy. Not at all. Maybe slightly impossible, because of the structures that we're used to and these ideas of the teachers as the dumper of knowledge. <br><br>
SH: I find it very difficult, you know, it's almost like a, like an, extremely difficult thing to think through, because if we can't even make sense of, you know, how to have the most beneficial social relationship between teaching staff and students. How are we even starting to become prepared for urgent socio-political issues that do not include humans? How do we ... How do we sort of thinking through that?
TG: This is a whole different challenge. Because we are not used to this, or we think that we are not used to this. So I was reading ‘Being Ecological’ [Timothy Morton]. Wherein it is stated that we are … We are already ecological. Right?<br><br>
We are way more in touch with everything in our surroundings, and the non-humans that live inside us than we think. It's more about rethinking this. But in education, how do you do this, when we're in buildings that are made to keep “nature” out. We're never outside. There are also no spiders inside, because educational buildings are usually quite well, you know, with the whole air supply stuff. Quite often, I can't even open windows.<br><br>
SH: You have to press buttons, like on these windows. <br><br>
TG: Exactly. Technological innovation. [laughs]
Fresh air, well, relatively fresh air…. So, how can we do this?<br><br>
SH: I think this is very interesting. Because I would actually, instinctively, think: well education is, in this current setting, completely removed from the current questions regarding the non-human. But for you to say that it is already highly embedded within it, although in a very unhelpful manner, then it is perhaps a good way to think about a possible reversed relationship. <br><br>
I'm just thinking about the term ‘the Anthropocene’. It has this prefix ‘anthropos’, the human. I think that word literally says that, mankind is (or has) become an integral part of ecology, right? So I think there's a similar relationship to what you were saying about the building cutting-up, quote unquote, nature. The human is in the geology right now. The human is part of geology, although, not in a helpful manner, right? But, I mean like, I don't know what it means for any possible inclusion of non-human epistemologies. Like, how can one sort of start to think about including different forms of knowledge, which I think also means a series of different forms of languages. Because, we cannot speak the way we speak to each other right now, to let's say a tree.<br><br>
I think there are quite interesting practices that arise, such as the practice of field-recordings, for example. Like, you know, this classic image of a person in a cargo shirt going out into an open landscape with a microphone. There are some of these aesthetic practices that are starting to arise, that could help us think through it.<br><br>
TG: Yeah, so you see this in the arts. Because in science, I mean you can have a field recording that would just mean that there is a scientist coming from a very specific scientific-paradigm of investigating nature and creating knowledge by really instrumentalizing nature. And not listening really. Or not having a conversation with nature. And of course we have anthropology, where the object of study, or the subjects, that whole relationship is changing quite a bit. And in any type of biology, chemistry or whatever, the object of study, protons, cells or whatever. They're not part of any conversation or taken into account in that sense, the object of study. <br><br>
But, I’d like to get back to the arts, because I think a lot more is happening there then in science. And this is why I also think that the arts are incredibly important. Also for science to see how we can we approach things differently. So, in art education. How do you see this? If you hear me speak about all kind of academics. Is there a difference? Is there more space for the non-human?<br><br>
SH: I think so, yeah. I think that there are a few things, like specific methods of image-making, that are quite present in the arts today. One really common one, that you would see quite often, is the genre of ‘slow cinema’. So, you know, you see like a scene, like a landscape that last five minutes long. And it is excruciating to look at. You only see the leaves slowly moving. It's quite interesting to see, because, you know, contemporary art and other forms of art-practices, like graphic design etc., are all heavily interested in film. But there is almost never a human present in the films themselves.<br><br>
TG: Although, well, somebody is making this film. <br><br>
SH: Yeah. Somebody is pointing the lens, the camera, as an extension of their eyes, of their images. But I think there's a much more fundamental issue in this regard, which is the issue of experience. Because the arts are ultimately mainly interested in forms of experience, forms of phenomenological and sensory relations. But there's no way for us to know whether the category of the non-human is still thinkable through experience. And, you know, philosophically this makes a lot of sense to me, but, when you start to think about how to think about this in art-practices… Like, how do you start doing that?
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